Election
Now that the CIA director is testifying that yes, we use water torture and we’ll keep doing so if we damn well please, it’s worth noting that the leading Dem candidate for president came out in favor of torture last year and just voted to use military force against Iran. It is mind-blowing then that two days ago, she pulled around half the Dem vote based largely on name recognition. Does that remind you of anyone recently at 1600 Pennsylvania?
| Clinton | Obama | |
| War | Was for the war before she was against it; claims she didn’t know Dubya would go to war after the vote, a blatant lie; voted a couple of months ago to authorize force against Iran, just like her Iraq vote | Against the war |
| Torture | Was for torture in case of a bogus Jack Bauer scenario; now against it because the polls have turned | Against torture in all cases |
| Health care | Requires people to buy health insurance, an unfunded mandate | Not mandatory, but would work to bring down the cost |
| Economy | Populist rhetoric, policy a combination of protectionist and free-market | Left-libertarian; not reflexively protectionist like Edwards |
HRC is limited by her gender by constantly having to prove she’s not limited by her gender. She votes for wars partly out of the exigency of the moment, partly to prove that a woman can too. It reminds me of Dubya’s determination to be tougher than his father. In the tech industry, former HP CEO Carly Fiorina launched a massive and failed acquisition of Compaq partly for the same reason.
Whether male or female, it’s dangerous to elect an insecure president. It gets hundreds of thousands of people killed.
on Thursday, February 7th, 2008, 1:03 pm in Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Politics › 
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Amen!
Good analysis. My 2 cts.
the dem superdelegates are likely to move allegiance to that person who stands the best chance to win against McCain. It comes down to the wedge issues that are likely to move the independents and the fence-sitters. imo the analysis at this point should be on proving/disproving that Obama vs McCain has a better chance of winning than HRC vs Mccain. So… What are these issues? Who’s best likely to sway the independents on these?
Very unclear what the outcome here will be. Krugman has several articles on this, the lates being this.
(Also, the wysiwyg tagging seems to have disappeared.)
Obama’s odd and vast abstentions are curiously omitted. I like him and intend to vote for him, but he IS a politician like the rest.
Manish,
You have wounded me deeply with that statement - which is smart, unfair ,untrue and misogynistic.
What if I take it as proof of the limitations of your gender? :-)
Hey, I’m pulling my best MoDo here and decrying the Man. Whaddyawant? :)
Frustratingly true, though.
glad ultrabrown is back. Manish, good comparison..old women, women are all voting for hillary and surprisingly white men are voting for obama…gender difference…
I dont think it is right for Hillary to keep saying she will be the first women president if given a chance..Neither gender or race or ’spouses should be the reason why someone is elected to such a powerful position as president of USA. I dont think Hillary voted for war because she wanted to prove she is not limited by gender. But I think she like many thought iraq had biological and nuclear weapons and she didnot think it is wrong of US to attack iraq without getting UN involved nor did she anticipate all problems that would spring up after attack..I think even Bush didnot anticipate all the sectorial voilence, sunni/shia fights and all that..I feel being in such a powerful position US presidents and hopefuls should be able to think way ahead of all the consequences of their actions.It is sad that they didnot anticipate or understand well everything and choose to attack without all the facts..That is a big mistake Hillary made and if she continues to take decisions like that one, it is scary. But she has lot of experience and I like her universal health care plan for everyone but without making it mandatory for everyone to pay a lot. Another concern is how clean is she and how honest is she..I remember someone wrote a book about her funds and that not all are from right sources..
obama seems more honest, appeals to everyone, is moderate and didnot support war but then is he another idealist with no experience. But then without oprah, kennedys, kerry endorsement what is his individual power..He seems to be raising more money than hillary and won more states than Hillary..we have to see if idealism translates to clean politics and good economy..
Interesting summarization Manish, thank you.
I love Barack Obama but lets get real. When he voted against the Iraq war he was a state senetor and his vote didnt matter. It is easy to be righteous when the stakes are low to non-existant. He did not have a clue in 2002 that Obama-mania preceded by Obama-girl phenomenon is going to happen.
He took office in Senate in 2005 and barely 1 year into it he started running for President. There is no data available about Obama with respect to what he will do when everyone is looking at his vote. There is no data to make an informed decision about what he would do when he is under pressure. Thats why 1 year in Senate is not long enough, because in 1 year you dont really have enough opportunity to take a tough stance.
All his ideas and positions are great, but there is no real data to back them up.
RC - your logic is interestng.
to me, what is remarkable is the man’s ability to reach across party lines, racial lines, generational lines, societal lines (and national lines :-) to bring people together. to me, one of the key functions of the president is to build consensus and move masses in a specific direction. he has it. mccain has it [a]. hrc does not. it isnt about her gender. al gore was similarly challenged. good administration is never about being smarter than everyone else in the team. i’ll suggest you read his bio. he has a history of getting things done [b].
But as you said, he knew he was going to run for president– so to him, it mattered quite a bit, and it was an unpopular stance at the time.
I agree a lil bit with khoofia..Obama life itself so far is inspiring..his parents divorced when he was young,..he lived in indonesia for sometime with his stepdad…and most of his adult life he lived with grandparents confused with his identity of being born to a white mother and an african father..was into drugs and all that..but then came back around made himself into what he is all by himself…his life itself is inspirational..he lost both parents..his fathers family is very poor in kenya and as Manish mentioned in one of his blog entries (comparing obama with bobby zindal I think manish noted that bobby did notsupport indians that much while obama made sure he cared enough about his fathers home country kenya, I hope Iam quoted u right Manish). Obama cared about kenya (his home country) and recently made phone calls when so much was going on…he has no experience in US politics but atleast when everyone was for war he voted against it..he seemed to bring everyone together..may be he can spread some goodwill about US to the world and improve damaged foreign relations..
that way Hillary also worked hard all her life to be where she is as if she was doing every little thing in her life to be president of usa one day..probably thats why she struck with Bill during lewinsky scandal…it was dreams for a long run…she has lots of experience living inside white house..and will be a package of two presidents (she and hubby) for one election..bill clinton made economy strong..so may be she will also do that if she becomes president..
Actually what I wanted to say that Obama did NOT know in 2002 that the stars will align in a way that he will be able to pursue a run for the presidency.
This is a new position for obama supporters, all along they have been claiming that there are no policy differences, but he is a unifier,bringer of hope, different kind of politics yada yada yada. On healthcare obama is very wrong. Mandate make a huge difference in viability of the program. Krugman has effectively nailed down the problem with obama’s position.
And so much for a different kind of politics.
I think Hillary will be the dem candidate over Obama. Last I checked, the pecking order was :
White man
White woman
…
Black man
Black woman
(ofcourse I’m just kidding. There is no racism in this country!)
Plus, last tuesday outside castro station (San Fran), I heard a fat white commuter yell “barack” (making a phlem sound at the end) and say that he sounded like a muslim terrorist.
Way to go San Francisco!
Also, Please dont abbreviate her name to HRC. I keep reading it as “Human Rights Campaign”.
While we are on that subject, Hillary is against gay-marriage (but then so is Obama). The only man who had balls enough to be pro gay-marriage is Kucinich, and this country isn’t ready for him.
Obama calls for force against Iran
This article summarizes why there is no effective policy difference between them on Iran/Iraq. If anything it proves his ideas are not well thought out.
Here is an interesting interview with Barack conducted at Google. He comes across as very thoughtful and well informed.
RC:
He knew he would run, even if he didn’t know it would be in ‘08.
Voice:
Mandates have failed in Massachussetts big-time, with many paying stiff fines rather than buying insurance. Are you aware that in areas like NYC, a solo buyer (healthy, 20s to 40s) can pay $450/month? That’s a hell of an unfunded mandate, it’s not car insurance.
Obama’s the only major candidate to have given a speech telling off his base for their homophobia (a couple of weeks ago).
An airstrike is not an invasion, which is what Hillary voted for. Again.
How do you figure? To these ears, promising to prevent Partition-like violence is quite welcome.
i always thought HRC was hard rock cafe.
Iran is definetely a different case from Iraq…
Iran, Korea have huge nuclear material and hopefully they have it to use it for right purposes..since not many are allowed into these countries which are governed by dictators no one knows if they have biological weapons too..
Iraq never had that much nuclear materials…and now we know from saddams last interviews/confessions with fbi, the country never had nuclear or biological weapons and saddam lied about it to keep iran scared..
so obama calling for force against iran is kind of right..recently UN also is insisting on iran to open out its nuclear program..
And today obama asked hillary to keep her tax returns open and how she had 5 million to loan to her campaign..her funds and source of funds is a lil questionable..
But hillary has experience obama doesnot..
we just have to wait and see..
In the current zeitgeist Billary is perceived to be poisoning the air with their brand of rough-n-tumble politics.
Unfortunately, perception is reality. HRC’s negatives seem to be building.
I’m turning. Why?
I don’t want the Iraq war to drag on. I don’t want a war with Iran. I don’t support justice without due process. We need immigration reform. We portable health care.
Billary will try to implement this if elected, but I have concerns.
0. The Republicans will unite like flies on dung if Billary is the candidate.
1. Can Billary defeat McCain + Huckabee?
2. Will Billary so bitterly divide this country, nothing will get done if they’re elected?
So Obama, the weaker candidate in my estimation, may be the better choice.