Six degrees of Apu on BBC Asian (updated)
BBC Asian talk show host Nihal had me on, in both senses, in a radio interview at the ungodly hour of 4 am Eastern. The ‘Big Debate’ program focused on Apu rather than the 7-Eleven promotion. Butting heads in real time was energizing — what a riot!
Update: Here’s part 1 with my interview:
Part 2:
Here’s the full program (RealAudio) and the comment board (thanks, Rohin). Below is a partial transcript of part 2.
Manzoor, the James Earl Jones-voiced guardian of Muslim pride, says The Simpsons shouldn’t touch religion with a bargepole.
Divan (caller): … if you do live in the States, they’re probably going through a similar stage that we were going through in the ’70s where Asians were much more of a novelty. The Asians in the UK now are a much more established community…
If you grow up with that, it’s much harder to be detached than the Indian comedian suggests… he suggests you should stand up and fight it… if you’ve actually grown up with being slightly different your whole life, beyond the… rhetoric, how the common man is affected…
Nihal: She [my wife] quite liked the fact that in America, she was exotic.
Caller Gurdeep admitted her shopkeeper husband had actually changed the labels on expired food.
Papa CJ, Indian-born comedian: [How to respond to ‘Thank you, come again’]: Well, I will come again because I have excess fertility.
Shekhar Bhatia, journalist: A few years ago… I interviewed… one of the creator of The Simpsons. I said, ‘Look mate, Apu’s very funny… but I do think you have to look at his accent…’ Here we are six years on and nothing’s changed… he is a bit painful at times. He’s not representative of shopkeepers…
There are so few of us who have high profile positions that when you put Apu there, he is taken as representative… but The Simpsons are [funny]…
CJ: Well, if they do, then they’re stupid.
Shekhar: If they’re stupid, then they’re dangerous… I used to get ripped about the Mind Your Language stuff…
CJ: American Indians are the highest income group.
Shekhar: Yeah, but income doesn’t necessarily mean progress…
Davinder: Certainly there are some boundaries that in the UK we may find it offensive or a little bit more sensitive, and I think we’ve got race relations far further than the Americans have.
Nihal: Americans… have no idea about distinguishing between different races. There were Sikh people who were murdered in the aftermath of 9/11.
Shekhar: We see a woman on the telly with a bindi being loved, so there are some good points… as far as American Indians are concerned… I don’t think they understand us as well… I think when The Simpsons were created on the Tracey Ullman show… [Matt Groening] probably knew one shopkeeper, and that’s how he sees us all…
Manzoor: I never even hinted, insinuated that Apu was Muslim. I was talking about Islamophobia. For them, all South Asians are alike… for them, you all come from the same stock and when they attack you as racist, they cannot make the distinction. And of course, non-Muslims have suffered at the hands of racists in the last few years. It is our own paucity of thought that we began to divide ourselves as Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims…
Money is not synonymous with class and distinction… One of the things we’re very fond of… is flaunting the wealth… to acquire status in society, which I think is counterproductive… Apu of course is doing his job as a shopkeeper, which is very positive… but … his actions, his bizarre practices, detract from that image and in the present climate is most unhelpful in the South Asian community … to be portrayed by a program watched by millions… and it acquires a measure of credibility…
Davinder (?): The Americans really do have the steereotype that those people who are… South Asian particularly Indian, Bangalore, are hard-working people, extremely bright… they most likely are going to be doctors or professionals of a sort… my experience in the U.S. as a turban-wearing Indian has been very positive, whereas I can’t necessarily say that’s been true in the UK… I have been more of a victim here than I have been anywhere else because I have been mistaken for [a terrorist]…
We are not all Asians. We may come from South Asia… but we need to be distinguished either through our ways of life… or our practices.
Taz (caller): I’ve seen [Apu] from when I was younger… from that age you just find him funny…
Nihal: How does Apu link to terrorism?
Taz: …the stereotype’s there, just sort of aggravates people to … take the mick more often…
Nihal: You think it does encourage people to take the mickey out of people more? … do you think… [Apu] does affect people here…
Taz: Not related to Apu, no.
Nihal: … so as you’ve got older, you’ve found him more offensive?
Taz: … not all Indians are like that…
Nihal: Is your local cornershop run by an Indian?
Taz: … Run by Punjabis…
Nihal: I presume Punjab is still a part of India… what kind of accent do they have? … so that stereotype that Apu has is true, in that respect.
Taz: But they’ve got pretty much a clear accent, they speak proper English…
Nihal: In the ’80s cornershop boom, most of the shops were run by Asians…
Taz: … [Asian TV characters should] relate more to modern day rather than relating it to back then…
Nihal: Do you find that the characters you see on TV represent who you are? …
Taz: No…
Nihal: So do you think TV has got a long way to go with regards to Asians?
Taz: I think so, yeah.
CJ: [says Nihal has his own show, clearly TV is doing fine]
Nihal: Well, I’m running it on the BBC Asian network, to be fair…
CJ: … it is in a place called White [?]…
Nihal: … each and every day I recognize the irony of that…
CJ: We need to stop putting ourselves in little boxes… I can’t relate to the characters either and frankly I don’t watch so much of TV, but if you want the characters portrayed differently then frankly you need to take more action about it [and write your own comedy]…
Reena: [reading emails] As a girl of South Indian descent… Apu is meant to be South Indian… long last names is more typical of Tamil names. I don’t understand why Manish Vij who is probably Punjabi is offended when it’s more relevant to Tamil South Indians…
Another email: Yes it is offensive, most of us speak just as good English as anybody else.
on Wednesday, July 18th, 2007, 5:11 am in Issues, Radio, Simpsons › 
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Hey, don’t just link to the messageboard Mahesh, show the people what Nihal’s listener’s are saying:
Message 8 - posted by Die Hard Duckie!
Is it me, or is daht “Mahesh Vij” fella kinda hawt?
Although the subsequent poster (clearly a very intellectual sort as he links to something I wrote) disagrees.
I’ll sound like an awful snob now, but when I have been a guest on the Asian Network, I have found the audience…challenging.
Oh and you are aware you can hear yourself here, right?
I am speechless after reading remarks by “Reena”…..
If we as Indians divide ourselves by regions, then how can we expect other races to be sensitive to us… SAD
Manish, thanks for the link to Nihal’s show. I thought Nihal really explored all aspects of the issue, and the most articulate guest on that show was Manzoor. And while I liked CJPapa’s comedy (thanks also for that youtube link) I also thought he wasn’t making any sense on the show.
Being born in the southern united states and being raised in New York City, I have to agree 100% With Munish. It’s easier for British Desis to say that “it’s just a joke…a cartoon….” and such, but it’s different here in America where outside of NYC, LA, and DC, there are not that many desis. British Desis are fortunate enough to have had a chance to be more progressive, so it’s definitely different. I’ve been to the UK to visit relatives, I’ve seen pretty much the entire country of England because I’ve got relatives all over. I can have a sense of humor about the Apu character, but Munish is right, the accent of Apu and all the other Indian characters are done is such a way to make them sound so primitive. There’s a 7-11 about 2 blocks from my house, and luckily none of the Desi employees I’ve seen there have mimicked Apu. I think Nihal did a great job of exploring all sides of the issue. But I don’t think Papa CJ has a very realistic point of view on the issue, it’s not that easy to be pro-active in breaking the stereotype in America because no one wants to give us a chance, no one takes us seriously, it’s not like in the UK where it’s common to see Desi faces on your TV and the rest of the media. I definitely don’t feel like Nihal’s wife though, it really bothers me that people see us as “exotic” because exotic translates into “different.” I grew up with the same like and dislikes as anyone else in America, so why am I seen as “exoctic”? It doesn’t quite make sense. And that one caller’s comment about how it only affects South Indians and not Punjabis, that has got to be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard.